New Thoughts on the 1857 Smoking Liberty Seated Quarter; Did the Midnight Minter Have Anything to do With it?

Posted by Mike Ellis at 30 April, 2009, 12:53 pm. 571 views
Categories: DLRC (David Lawrence Rare Coins), DLRC Auctions, Hot Topics, LSCC, News, Numismatic Blogs

I know, I know. I’m beating the subject coin to the point our readers may be getting tired of it. Well, fortunately for those who are getting tired of it, after tomorrow the sale and promotions should be all over. However, since the sales end tonight, the variety is heavy on my mind and a new theory has evolved.

Could it be that this 1857 Smoking Liberty Seated quarter is more work completed by the now infamous “Midnight Minter?” Think about it: His main work took place in 1857 and the other coins involved were a $20 gold coin, an 1857 Flying Eagle cent and, you got it, an 1857 quarter. The Smoking Liberty quarter does exhibit clashed dies that are not immediately identifiable as that of another 1857 quarter. I have not yet studied the clashing to see if it could belong to a Flying Eagle cent but I will in the near future. If I can ID the clash as from an 1857 FE cent, can you image the interest that will be stirred up? Also, if I do, I will post the results here immediately.

If you happen to have one of these great varieties or win one of them that ends tonight, please study the clash and let me know if it looks like a possible FE cent clash.

Who needs CSI when I am a Forensic Numismatist? Stay tuned for more episodes right here on “Stella Coin News” and let us know if your numismatic forensics turns up any really cool cases.

Have fun!

Mike


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Comments

WLW May 1, 2009

Hello, I just discovered one of these. It has AU detail but has been cleaned, wiping out almost all luster except traces.

Where are the clashed die marks found? I could not detect any. Could be lost in the cleaning or, I noticed some short die lines or possible die polish running verticle up from the rim near the last 2 stars. Perhaps there are different die states?

Mike Ellis May 4, 2009

Hello WLW,
I am glad to hear of your good fortune! If I am not mistaking, that brings the count up to 33 that I am aware of. There are different die states but all of them show the “cigar or cigarette” very well even in low grade. So far, most of the clashing is minimal but the die polish to remove the clashing is all over the coin, mostly in the form of vertical die polish lines from rim to rim on the obverse. This odd die polish has caused most of them I have seen to appear rather flat and lightly cleaned whether they are or not. The proper luster just isn’t there, especially on higher circ grades. Some that have been called “lightly cleaned” may warrant a review some day.
Mike

dysplastic May 5, 2009

Hi, I have one of these as well, and have been following the posts to see what my find is worth. I showed mine to a local dealer, and he thinks it might have been cleaned as well, but maybe he was having the same issue that you mentioned regarding polishing. Do you have an email I can send you pics? maybe you can tell me something about it. Also, mine has an interesting dot-like mark between the 5 and seven of the date. Maybe that is a die clash mark, or maybe something else? How many of these do you think are out there? If the rate of 30ish per 30,000 coins applies, there would be 9,000, but that assumes a simple random sample for the initial search. Thanks, David

Mike Ellis May 5, 2009

Hello, David. I’m glad to hear you have one of these. I believe it is destined to become a very popular variety. I just wish I had some kind of number assigned to it. I’ll keep plugging away at that.

I am not familiar with the dot-like mark in the date. That I would like to see. You can try emailing images but more than likely I will eventually have to see the coin. There are other marks related to this with most being within a quarter of an inch to the cigar.

As for an estimate of quantity of survivors, I have no real clue. I’m thinking once this was discovered at the mint the die was just retired as repair work to the die would have had to be extensive. Given this info and your estimates and melt estimates I think we will be doing real good if a total of near 100 survives today. For now, I’m placing my estimate at around 50. If I ever hear of more finds I will certainly report them on Stella.

You may send an image and email to me any time at mike.ellis@dominiongrading.com .

partagas July 27, 2009

Hi Mike and thanks for the interesting discussion.

I have 2 examples of the “smoking” coins. One is a PCGS 64 OGH. It exhibits the die polish lines you describe and really has a lusterless appearance. It was purchased unattributed by me from Heritage in auction 1122 lot #8154. I knew what it was and purchased it because of the variety. The second example is a raw VF25 specimen.

I see no clashing from an examination of both “smoking” specimens in my inventory. I do however have 4 other clashed quarters from 1857. Two are clashed on the obverse right field with unidentified clash marks. The clashes seem similar but I am not convinced they are from the same obverse die. One shows extensive die damage, while the other has more detail and a large crack on the stars. I also have two examples of the 1857 quarter clashed with the flying eagle cent.

Lots of interesting varieties between the 1856 and 1857 seated quarters. Oddly enough no varieties to date have been discovered in 1858 regarding the quarters. The 1856 coins have been found to have two distinct misplaced digits on parts of the shield and another one on the body of Liberty next to the shield. I do agree with the hypothesis the Midnight minter was probably responsible for some if not all these varieties.

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